Is LP more about male supremacy than explosive sex?

[avanfurwet]

Dear Vulture,

You asked me about actresses not appearing happy and abandoned and then claimed my answer encouraged physical assault.
Please don't keep deliberately misrepresenting other people's words as a means to promote your moralising narrative. That's just trolling.

The porn industry has always serviced a demand for BDSM content, and always will, whether you or I like it or not.

Google says pornography is "visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate sexual excitement". One genre of pornography depicts enjoyment by models/actors. You and I enjoy that genre. Other genres depict discomfort and much more. I don't enjoy those genres but they exist to serve a demand whether you or I like it or not.

Every day millions of people and their children watch on TV & in computer games & movies depictions of human discomfort, misery, violent assault and murder all acted out for their entertainment. Our societies deem this perfectly OK and perceive no moral dilemma, although most western societies prudishly censor any sexual activity.

In porn, as on TV or in movies, a script may require an actress to appear unhappy, uncomfortable, even hurt and distressed. Sometimes they pretend to die. So long as the actress isn't pressed to perform more than she freely agreed to, and isn't actually harmed or threatened or put at unreasonable risk, and so long as the performance is carefully and professionally staged, then I'm OK with it. It's acting.

I think the hand swatting incident in your example sounds trivial. I'm sorry if it spoiled the scene for you. I think Kriss made a good suggestion that you could ask Giorgio about it and what he wanted to depict and if it worked for him. If he even remembers it.

I'm glad you've found some scenes you like at Private. Happy Christmas.

[TheVulture]

You're drawing a distinction between scenes with physical abuse in them and those with psychological abuse in them. I'm not and furthermore think it is lame to do so.

In fact, I actually think that psychological abuse is worse as it's more cowardly and less transparent (and leads to lame excuses such as yours).

The people who get off on seeing a guy deny a woman pleasure are in effect no different to those who get off on seeing a guy physically assault a woman. It's all abuse. If certain "niche" corners of porn are making efforts to satiate this "demand" then I personally wouldn't shed any tears when the authorities go after them and shut them down. The wider problem, of course, is that this brings heat onto porn in general as the authorities are obviously not likely to distinguish between different types of porn.

Basically, moments like these (and much of what we've seen on LP recently, particularly the rectal bleeding episodes) make me feel a bit ashamed to be a paying LP customer. It would be lovely if the site's fanbase could reach a wide consensus on these kind of issues but I'm long past the point of expecting this. The majority of porn fans I just don't think care about the welfare of female porn stars (physical and psychological). It's very sad really.

[TheVulture]

In porn, as on TV or in movies, a script may require an actress to appear unhappy, uncomfortable, even hurt and distressed. Sometimes they pretend to die.

Those are bad porn scenes made by disgusting people, end of story. They should be fought at every turn.

[magizi877]

TheVulture seems to dislike LP scenes so much, that all he talks about is how Legalporno product would be better if it didn't had male actors or if the male actors were manikins.

As soon as the male actors touch the babes, they are "misogynist pigs" and everyone who likes LP as it is, obviously is sick also.



(lol)

[DoubleOrNothing]

In porn, as on TV or in movies, a script may require an actress to appear unhappy, uncomfortable, even hurt and distressed. Sometimes they pretend to die.

Those are bad porn scenes made by disgusting people, end of story. They should be fought at every turn.

Go away beta.

[DoubleOrNothing]

TheVulture seems to dislike LP scenes so much, that all he talks about is how Legalporno product would be better if it didn't had male actors or if the male actors were manikins.

As soon as the male actors touch the babes, they are "misogynist pigs" and everyone who likes LP as it is, obviously is sick also.



(lol)

You're trying to argue with an SJW - that's like trying to argue with a member of a religious cult.

[mdsflyby]

In porn, as on TV or in movies, a script may require an actress to appear unhappy, uncomfortable, even hurt and distressed. Sometimes they pretend to die.

Those are bad porn scenes made by disgusting people, end of story. They should be fought at every turn.

Wow!
You either:
1. twelve years old
2. very narrow-minded person
3. just a regular troll (btw, do you like pw?)

Please go to Private and stay there!

[mdsflyby]

[Kriss1986]

Woowww . What is happening here? The rumor is bigger than I though... For god's sake please just PM to Mr Giorgio and ask for details if you really want to know if girl was ok during and after mentioned scene. This whole discussion made way too far!

[TheVulture]

Woowww . What is happening here? The rumor is bigger than I though... For god's sake please just PM to Mr Giorgio and ask for details if you really want to know if girl was ok during and after mentioned scene. This whole discussion made way too far!

Why would I do that? If I don't like something in a porn scene or (as is more the case here) something kinda recurrent within a porn stable (the general misogyny/male brutishness within most of LP) then I'll just stop buying the product. In the meantime this forum is a good place for me to voice my displeasure.

During recent scenes I've seen Giorgio present rectal bleeding, tell a female performer that he "enjoys seeing girls in pain" (an old scene but nevertheless), bully a girl into signing up for something she clearly doesn't want to do post-scene (this is one of the scenes with rectal bleeding, btw) and now advocate "female pleasure denial". If that's his style then good luck to him. His style is also, btw, guys who are pretty much semi-erect throughout and whose balls look drained from the scene's outset and thus cannot cum beyond a pathetic dribble.

If he sees this and it has any kind of positive impact on his product, great. If not, I couldn't really care less. I'm only sticking around on LP for the Interracial Vision scenes, which thus far seem to be much more in the spirit of hot, wanton porn where the girls are treated with respect.

[Jocke]

Sex should be about giving and receiving pleasure. I especially appreciate when there is connection between the actors and you could see a play between them and not that every action goes via the director.

When I was a kid I got off just seeing naked women. Today I want to look into their soul and via their expressions understand their feelings. I think it is very arousing to see a shy woman be teased to reveal her sexual desire. I don't want to think that they do this all day to make a living while thinking about something else. The best porn would be professionally filmed amateur porn.

If you want violence and see people in pain I think you are a disgusting person. Yes in movies you should be allowed to show pain as that is a part of life, but never as something to promote or something good and never in porn.

[Pimp84]

i think LP is doing a great job about that!

of course a lot depends on model attitude: they are some models are naturally " submissive" so they are enjoying to be "dominated" by guys

other are more "dominant" and so they prefer dominating

just need to find a good mix ,that change anyway from each scene /each girl performers

[TheVulture]

i think LP is doing a great job about that!

of course a lot depends on model attitude: they are some models are naturally " submissive" so they are enjoying to be "dominated" by guys

other are more "dominant" and so they prefer dominating

just need to find a good mix ,that change anyway from each scene /each girl performers

The problem is that most of the girls are in between those 2 extremes (Luna is a classic case in point) and IMHO just get steamrollered into being submissive by default - that is, have their throats grabbed, faces and arses slapped, arms twisted behind their backs, hands swatted away from clit etc. etc. etc. It's totally impossible for the viewer to tell if a girl asked for any of that. If we take LP as an example then 90% of porn women are submissive, which I find statistically unlikely and is furthermore not supported when you look at work of the same girls on other sites.

Instinctively it seems likely to me that most girls will tolerate the different behaviours across different platforms but that's quite another thing from liking them all (or expecting the girls to speak publicly about them). And it certainly does not excuse sites like LP (IMHO) where the "default setting" is at an unpleasant male-domination heavy level and where girls' visible enjoyment is not only promoted less but as in this case actively discouraged.

Each to their own but LP is increasingly nothing better than "bully porn" for me.

[TheVulture]

Sex should be about giving and receiving pleasure. I especially appreciate when there is connection between the actors and you could see a play between them and not that every action goes via the director.

When I was a kid I got off just seeing naked women. Today I want to look into their soul and via their expressions understand their feelings. I think it is very arousing to see a shy woman be teased to reveal her sexual desire. I don't want to think that they do this all day to make a living while thinking about something else. The best porn would be professionally filmed amateur porn.

If you want violence and see people in pain I think you are a disgusting person. Yes in movies you should be allowed to show pain as that is a part of life, but never as something to promote or something good and never in porn.

Great post.

[Kriss1986]

Sex should be about giving and receiving pleasure. I especially appreciate when there is connection between the actors and you could see a play between them and not that every action goes via the director.

When I was a kid I got off just seeing naked women. Today I want to look into their soul and via their expressions understand their feelings. I think it is very arousing to see a shy woman be teased to reveal her sexual desire. I don't want to think that they do this all day to make a living while thinking about something else. The best porn would be professionally filmed amateur porn.

If you want violence and see people in pain I think you are a disgusting person. Yes in movies you should be allowed to show pain as that is a part of life, but never as something to promote or something good and never in porn.

Great post.

I can't understand why some people are trying so hard to connect sex as an act with porn . Porn has nothing to do with reality - I mean feelings and behaviours between lovers in real world... Porn is mainly job for those girls. It's an acting like actors and actresses in theatre or cinema. Of course it's always better when job is connected with a pleasure but reality isn't perfect. All what we are watching is agreement between girls and directors. I bet nobody here do not want to watch violence and women beeing hurted! We are here because LP provide good hardcore action at highest level. The demand is supply that is the reason why girls are agree to do all nasty things. The only way to change it, is to stop buy that kind of content.

[hjohjole]

The problem is that most of the girls are in between those 2 extremes (Luna is a classic case in point) and IMHO just get steamrollered into being submissive by default - that is, have their throats grabbed, faces and arses slapped, arms twisted behind their backs, hands swatted away from clit etc. etc. etc. It's totally impossible for the viewer to tell if a girl asked for any of that. If we take LP as an example then 90% of porn women are submissive, which I find statistically unlikely and is furthermore not supported when you look at work of the same girls on other sites.

Instinctively it seems likely to me that most girls will tolerate the different behaviours across different platforms but that's quite another thing from liking them all (or expecting the girls to speak publicly about them). And it certainly does not excuse sites like LP (IMHO) where the "default setting" is at an unpleasant male-domination heavy level and where girls' visible enjoyment is not only promoted less but as in this case actively discouraged.

Each to their own but LP is increasingly nothing better than "bully porn" for me.

But it is not the job of porn studios to make porn that exactly matches every involved performers personal tastes and preferences for sex. And it is not the job of porn studios to provide an demographically accurate representation of the general populations tastes and preferences for sex.
Studios makes porn for an intended target audience with the hopes that it will be good enough to sell to this particular audience. LP for example makes hardcore anal porn, and therefore they only work with performers willing and able to perform the required acts. No one is being "steamrolled" or "bullied" in to anything.

You dont see me hanging out over at x-art for example making demands that they should do this and that many scenes with hard anal sex since this or that actress actually prefers it in her personal life. Or that a certain percentage of their scenes should feature anal since statistics shows that this many women likes it in their personal life.

[VBT_2]

Porn is mainly job for those girls. It's an acting like actors and actresses in theatre or cinema. Of course it's always better when job is connected with a pleasure but reality isn't perfect.

It is some more specific than that.

[DoubleOrNothing]

i think LP is doing a great job about that!

of course a lot depends on model attitude: they are some models are naturally " submissive" so they are enjoying to be "dominated" by guys

other are more "dominant" and so they prefer dominating

just need to find a good mix ,that change anyway from each scene /each girl performers

The problem is that most of the girls are in between those 2 extremes (Luna is a classic case in point) and IMHO just get steamrollered into being submissive by default - that is, have their throats grabbed, faces and arses slapped, arms twisted behind their backs, hands swatted away from clit etc. etc. etc. It's totally impossible for the viewer to tell if a girl asked for any of that. If we take LP as an example then 90% of porn women are submissive, which I find statistically unlikely and is furthermore not supported when you look at work of the same girls on other sites.

Instinctively it seems likely to me that most girls will tolerate the different behaviours across different platforms but that's quite another thing from liking them all (or expecting the girls to speak publicly about them). And it certainly does not excuse sites like LP (IMHO) where the "default setting" is at an unpleasant male-domination heavy level and where girls' visible enjoyment is not only promoted less but as in this case actively discouraged.

Each to their own but LP is increasingly nothing better than "bully porn" for me.

What's that smell?

It's the smell of all the dry pussies within a ten-mile radius of you.

[mistress_cindy2008]

It's the smell of all the dry pussies within a ten-mile radius of you.

Have to admit that was pretty funny.

[TheVulture]

This just in: survey reveals that male porn forum users defending aggressive content are amongst highest percentile of sexually active adults.

Who knew?

[TheVulture]

But it is not the job of porn studios to make porn that exactly matches every involved performers personal tastes and preferences for sex.

Surely that is exactly the job of a porn studio and in instances where these aspects are matched necessarily will the hottest porn be produced. Whereas where there is a disconnect between a studio's style (which in LP's case is largely driven by the male performers) and the preferences of the female performers then you're necessarily going to produce "pay cheque"/off the peg/tick box porn, which IMHO is more "vanilla" than even soft porn (regardless of how hard it is).

LP for example makes hardcore anal porn, and therefore they only work with performers willing and able to perform the required acts. No one is being "steamrolled" or "bullied" in to anything.

This disregards the whole ethos of the topic being discussed by suggesting that porn can be reduced to nothing more than X's and O's and that the nature of a scene is determined solely by the acts on display. The point is that there are numerous ways that you can present, for example, anal sex and the heat of such a scene for many will focus at least as much on the reactions of and chemistry between the performers as it will on the positions, number of dicks inserted etc.

You're reducing porn to simple formulas, basically, which is the antithesis of what I'm talking about. Great porn is about great chemistry, which you can't just buy off the shelf.

[Gagandrim]

The people who get off on seeing a guy deny a woman pleasure are in effect no different to those who get off on seeing a guy physically assault a woman. It's all abuse.

The denial of pleasure is equivalent to causing pain?

[laird.cameltown]

The idea that porn is people having sex the way that they want to and a camera man just happened to be there is a fiction.

As someone else wrote, porn is not made for the porn actors. It is made for the audience in exchange for payment.

There is no evidence that Luna Rival was surprised or upset by this clit-rubbing denial. In fact, she has already come back to film more scenes.

Different people like different porn. If LP scenes are upsetting due to clit-rubbing denials, there are a lot of options out there that are more clit-rubbing friendly. Instead, this thread looks like just another case of someone trying to salvage chivalry out of which triple anal porn scenes they prefer.

[Kriss1986]

^ I agree with you but what can I say, some others here have different point of view and I do not have the strength to argue.

[laird.cameltown]

^ I agree with you but what can I say, some others here have different point of view and I do not have the strength to argue.

That is probably the wiser path.

[odysseusrex]

The idea that porn is people having sex the way that they want to and a camera man just happened to be there is a fiction.

As several people wrote, porn is not made for the porn actors. It is made for the audience in exchange for payment.

There is no evidence that Luna Rival was surprised or upset by this clit-rubbing denial. In fact, she has already come back to film more scenes.

Different people like different porn. If LP scenes are upsetting due to clit-rubbing denials, there are a lot of options out there that are more clit-rubbing friendly. Instead, this thread looks like just another case of someone trying to salvage chivalry out of which triple anal porn scenes they prefer.

I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of The Vulture's point.

Yes, porn is made by actresses for payment. I work for payment. I make my working environment as pleasant for myself as I can. If I'm going to be prevented from doing that, or if I have to do things that I consider unnecessarily stupid, painful or for dubious ends, I expect that to be in the contract up front so I can agree or walk away.

Same with porn. This is not about whether Luna was traumatised for months because she couldn't play with herself that time; Vulture was making a general point about what performers should be able to do during scenes.
The bottom line being, if I paraphrase The Vulture correctly, that girls who enjoy themselves make more enjoyable porn.
If a scene is about orgasm denial, then it should be advertised as such, not least to the actress concerned before she signs up to do it. Sure, it's a fetish, some actresses get off on it, and k i n k dot c o m do that sort of thing really well. Consensual BDSM is fine, though for me LP is about athletic and multiple anal, not BDSM, and LP might not be the best studio to handle BDSM.

It's not Social Justice Warrior behaviour to insist on all actors and directors concerned being transparent about what the actors can or can't do with each other at work. Hopefully there's lots of triple anal involved. No one on this thread is 'trying to salvage chivalry' from LP porn, Vulture included.

And as for the recent posters: take the Trumpist language elsewhere.

[DoubleOrNothing]

It's not Social Justice Warrior behaviour to insist on all actors and directors concerned being transparent about what the actors can or can't do with each other at work. Hopefully there's lots of triple anal involved. No one on this thread is 'trying to salvage chivalry' from LP porn, Vulture included.

I quote from the title, "Is LP more about MALE SUPREMACY".

Nobody said that this beta turkey is an SJW because he "insists on all actors and directors concerned being transparent about what the actors can or can't do with each other at work". GTFO.

And as for the recent posters: take the Trumpist language elsewhere.

Go

Fuck

Yourself.

[laird.cameltown]

Same with porn. This is not about whether Luna was traumatised for months because she couldn't play with herself that time; Vulture was making a general point about what performers should be able to do during scenes.

That is the point where I believe he is mistaken.

To use your work analogy, that is like saying that you should be able to be paid to be an architect. But, occasionally have the freedom to just draw windmills that no client requested on the companies time.

That's why I included in my post the point about these films being made for the audience. Not for the performers. Luna Rival is only one part of the crew. She isn't the owner of the final product, the director or the client. That she might have decided to try to get off a certain way in that moment doesn't mean that that must be how the scene has to go or else it's about "male supremacy".

The bottom line being, if I paraphrase The Vulture correctly, that girls who enjoy themselves make more enjoyable porn.

A) They make more enjoyable porn according to his specific fetish. Not everyone has the same fetishes as TheVulture and that is ok.

B) I find it highly unlikely that the women enjoy the sex nearly as much as TheVulture seems to think. Personally, I find it distracting and sad when women are obviously faking pleasure in order to make viewers feel less guilty about it.

C) As far as I can tell, LP is doing just fine without changing their product to appeal more to TheVulture.

If a scene is about orgasm denial, then it should be advertised as such, not least to the actress concerned before she signs up to do it. Sure, it's a fetish, some actresses get off on it, and k i n k dot c o m do that sort of thing really well. Consensual BDSM is fine, though for me LP is about athletic and multiple anal, not BDSM, and LP might not be the best studio to handle BDSM.

The incident that TheVulture described does not establish that the scene was about orgasm denial. Maybe the male actor was afraid that her nails were going to scratch his junk. Who knows. But, the whole thing was blown out of proportion. I'm fairly confident that Luna Rival herself wouldn't even remember anything about it if you asked her now.

It's not Social Justice Warrior behaviour to insist on all actors and directors concerned being transparent about what the actors can or can't do with each other at work. Hopefully there's lots of triple anal involved. No one on this thread is 'trying to salvage chivalry' from LP porn, Vulture included.

I don't think it has been established that anyone wasn't clear or transparent. I mean, how far are you going to take that? That it has to be in the contract that the actors knees can't touch the floor because that sometimes hurts a little? That you may be asked to not rub your clit at certain times?

In reality, it was probably caused by her getting conflicting directions from multiple people and was just trying to stay on script.

[dap-addict]

The bottom line being, if I paraphrase The Vulture correctly, that girls who enjoy themselves make more enjoyable porn.

B) I find it highly unlikely that the women enjoy the sex nearly as much as TheVulture seems to think. Personally, I find it distracting and sad when women are obviously faking pleasure in order to make viewers feel less guilty about it.

Here we have it again: Guilt creeping in! A concept of porn built on European guilt culture and chauvinistic patronizing male users trying to reduce their guilt by self-rightousely defining what women have to feel doing this kind of work. WTF!

You can read I was initially quite sypathic about The Vultures OP post - till I realized he uses that Luna Rival scene just to proof his male supremacy claim. Also as cameltown wrote the whole thing got blewn up byond reason - while we still dont even know what the director had in mind shooting this scene, neither why Brooklyn reacted that specific way and wheter Luna really felt like rubbing her clit or just did it because she thought she's expected to do it, like all the fake moaning in some Gio films.

Why not just accept its an entertainment industry job they get payed for and if they are pros they just enact what the director wants and the way he wants it?! And as with any other job the more they like doing it the better the result - usually!

But likeing such a porn job isnt just limited to on set pleasure, but bts mood, haveing a good or a bad day generally, emotional stress factors etc. Just life - and professionalism requested on stage, on a porn set, too!


Finally, The Vulture, if you cant enjoy what you watch, look for other entertainment, but stuff your anti-porner crap!

[laird.cameltown]

Why not just accept its an entertainment industry job they get payed for and if they are pros they just enact what the director wants and the way he wants it?! And as with any other job the more they like doing it the better the result - usually!

But likeing such a porn job isnt just limited to on set pleasure, but bts mood, haveing a good or a bad day generally, emotional stress factors etc. Just life - and professionalism requested on stage, on a porn set, too!

Agreed.

Reasons for liking the job could be limited simply to the short amount of time it takes to make a decent amount of money. The same basis that millions of people around the world have for taking on their jobs.

[Kriss1986]

Why not just accept its an entertainment industry job they get payed for and if they are pros they just enact what the director wants and the way he wants it?! And as with any other job the more they like doing it the better the result - usually!

But likeing such a porn job isnt just limited to on set pleasure, but bts mood, haveing a good or a bad day generally, emotional stress factors etc. Just life - and professionalism requested on stage, on a porn set, too!

Agreed.

Reasons for liking the job could be limited simply to the short amount of time it takes to make a decent amount of money. The same basis that millions of people around the world have for taking on their jobs.

Simple thing - job is generally for making $$. If it's connected with pleasure - you are a lucky beggar. But sometimes even the best job can be unpleasant or stressful.

[VBT_2]

Part "girls who enjoy themselves make more enjoyable porn" - I would say: "girls who enjoy themselves USUALLY make more enjoyable porn". Nothing more, nothing less.

Btw, you waisted two forum pages of novels to get in argue on the end. It is pointless. Relax.

[dap-addict]

Simple thing - job is generally for making $$. If it's connected with pleasure - you are a lucky beggar. But sometimes even the best job can be unpleasant or stressful.

Looks like a lot of these discussions here spark because of different real life sexual experience of porn users. If its limited or none fantasy concepts take often lead. In order to cool down and get to earth again let me add this:

What bugs porn actresses most in that job:
- endless waiting (for MU, scenes to start etc)
- being on the road most of the time (airports, transfers, junk food, short time home etc)
- tireing and painful positions especially for hands and knees
Denied sexual pleasures? - n/a
Go figure!

[avanfurwet]

Simple thing - job is generally for making $$. If it's connected with pleasure - you are a lucky beggar. But sometimes even the best job can be unpleasant or stressful.

Looks like a lot of these discussions here spark because of different real life sexual experience of porn users. If its limited or none fantasy concepts take often lead. In order to cool down and get to earth again let me add this:

What bugs porn actresses most in that job:
- endless waiting (for MU, scenes to start etc)
- being on the road most of the time (airports, transfers, junk food, short time home etc)
- tireing and painful positions especially for hands and knees
Denied sexual pleasures? - n/a
Go figure!

Sounds like my last employment. Except for the hands and knees thing.

[VBT_2]

Simple thing - job is generally for making $$. If it's connected with pleasure - you are a lucky beggar. But sometimes even the best job can be unpleasant or stressful.

Looks like a lot of these discussions here spark because of different real life sexual experience of porn users. If its limited or none fantasy concepts take often lead. In order to cool down and get to earth again let me add this:

What bugs porn actresses most in that job:
- endless waiting (for MU, scenes to start etc)
- being on the road most of the time (airports, transfers, junk food, short time home etc)
- tireing and painful positions especially for hands and knees
Denied sexual pleasures? - n/a
Go figure!

Sounds like my last employment. Except for the hands and knees thing.

So, "denied sexual pleasures" included?

[dap-addict]

VBT, you missed the n/a!
LOL!

[Kriss1986]

Simple thing - job is generally for making $$. If it's connected with pleasure - you are a lucky beggar. But sometimes even the best job can be unpleasant or stressful.

Looks like a lot of these discussions here spark because of different real life sexual experience of porn users. If its limited or none fantasy concepts take often lead. In order to cool down and get to earth again let me add this:

What bugs porn actresses most in that job:
- endless waiting (for MU, scenes to start etc)
- being on the road most of the time (airports, transfers, junk food, short time home etc)
- tireing and painful positions especially for hands and knees
Denied sexual pleasures? - n/a
Go figure!

That's what I'm talking about! Porn is generally job like many other professions. Some here just can't understand it and trying to connect it with deeper feelings...

[VBT_2]

^ Are you 100% sure?

VBT, you missed the n/a!

I prefer it this way.

[Kriss1986]

^ Are you 100% sure?

Yep I'm qite sure.

[JohnMcSpunkencock]

Unlike about 95% of porn/LP related threads I think this one is a worthy thread not least because, it asks a question in the title rather than blurt out some negative, one-eyed rubbish. While I personally feel that LP is about explosive sex and not male supremacy I have no doubt that a select few may have egos bigger than their performances. Some clearly are good solid down to earth pros such as Erik and Luca and you just know these guys are low on the ego front.