Political correctness

[netzerkaiser]

Open forum, what do you think?

I post colours to mast, I think its gone crazy, I'm conservative working class if that makes sense...

Conservative in being humble enough to learn from collective historical wisdom & appreciating what needs to be conserved, though that does not mean trampling upon weakest in society..

[scarletxxx666]

sorry thats too complex for me i didnt understood that sentence

[netzerkaiser]

sorry thats too complex for me i didnt understood that sentence

(i) Conservative in being humble enough to learn from collective historical wisdom & appreciating what needs to be conserved, (ii)though that does not mean trampling upon weakest in society..

Sorry. (i) I meant 'progressives' etc are too quick to want to change things about society - too arrogant & actually not very bright because I think they imagine country folk walking around with mobile phones etc 200 years ago. (ii) Definitely some things need changing, & have changed for better, such as social safety nets, at least in western europe.

[netzerkaiser]

I just think its horrible to see people continuously having to grovel & apologise & stp down from their jobs for things they may have said or done years ago which don't fit all this current witch hunt for anyone not 'woke' enough or whatever.

Its ironic that liberalism can be so oppressive in its own right.

[YumYum74]

Thank you for assuming I’m not very bright because I’m liberal/left/whatever label you wanna put on me.

[101mike101]

Open forum, what do you think?

I post colours to mast, I think its gone crazy, I'm conservative working class if that makes sense...

Conservative in being humble enough to learn from collective historical wisdom & appreciating what needs to be conserved, though that does not mean trampling upon weakest in society..

For me, anything political is the same as unethical. Because the essence of politics is making yourself and your side look good and your opponents look bad, regardless of who is right and wrong.

It has nothing to do with being fair or good. It's all about winning in any way you can. Which makes politics fundamentally unjust as a method for doing things and for achieving goals.

At its extreme, politics leads to war, civil war, or a war with external enemies. Which is another reason why politics is an unethical way of doing things.

[Jocke]

If you want to understand politics you need to look below the surface.

Communism as an ideology by Karl Marx to remove the unequalness in a capitalistic society where factory and land owners enslaved the rest of the population is not the same as current Russian kleptocracy or Leninistic/Stalinistic authoritarian rule. If you want to discuss communism you need to tell which one. Right wing politicians of course say that any change to create a more equal society is Stalinistic or will immediately take the country in a Venezuelan direction.

Conservatism could mean building a society around principles derived over a long period but if you look at current GOP they are not protecting traditional values of fairness, honesty, or following the law. Actually they are the opposite. They have only kept bigotry, homophobia and the love of guns and money.

Conservative politicians are more interested in preserving privileges and making sure that the rich get richer and that working class stay working.

Progressive means that you strive to improve life for everyone as soon as there is an opportunity and you believe that gaining knowledge through science will help. Progressives want us to vaccinate to fight the pandemic for the benefit of all. Conservatives are often sceptic to science and rather die in a preventable disease than try a new medicine. Conservatives believe in bronze age myths without any evidence but are sceptic against evolution even when the theory can be demonstrated in front of them. It is typical for the brain to accept everything you are told at young age by authorities like your parents regardless how stupid and illogical. As people with a conservative mindset grow up they retain childhood superstition while progressives grow wiser.

[Pineapples Studio]

Open forum, what do you think?

I post colours to mast, I think its gone crazy, I'm conservative working class if that makes sense...

Conservative in being humble enough to learn from collective historical wisdom & appreciating what needs to be conserved, though that does not mean trampling upon weakest in society..

For me, anything political is the same as unethical. Because the essence of politics is making yourself and your side look good and your opponents look bad, regardless of who is right and wrong.

It has nothing to do with being fair or good. It's all about winning in any way you can. Which makes politics fundamentally unjust as a method for doing things and for achieving goals.

At its extreme, politics leads to war, civil war, or a war with external enemies. Which is another reason why politics is an unethical way of doing things.

It’s the only way of doing things. Politics don’t exist just for the hell of it. They exist because they provide the most effective means of motivating people to maintain their own societies. You cannot dismiss the fundamental challenges that human nature presents here, which often render any dreams of altruistic cooperation impossible. Altruism may work at the level of a family or a clan, but it doesn’t scale. Altruism cannot drive complex societies because men are greedy. They want to be rewarded personally for their individual achievements. The successful realization of a shared collectivist goal is simply not enough; talented people want their own piece of the pie and their own “special” stake in its success. They want rewards in proportion to the amount of effort they put into something, and they don’t want people who did not match their output to receive the rewards that they do.

It is often said that communism only works on paper and quickly devolves into tyranny when put into practice, and this is true, but it’s important to understand that the reason it is true is thanks to basic human nature.

[Pineapples Studio]

As for political correctness… I think people should try to be considerate of others, as a general rule, in that sense I do understand the thinking behind it. However, you cannot force people to be nice. Political correctness tries to enforce consideration through regulation of language and thought, which doesn’t work because it doesn’t address the core problem: intent.

Therefore, it doesn’t work as it is intended to work, and it ends up punishing people on technicalities for things that were done without any bad intentions simply because they do not conform to the “correct” mode of speech.

[ryukenmaster666]

Progressive means that you strive to improve life for everyone as soon as there is an opportunity and you believe that gaining knowledge through science will help. Progressives want us to vaccinate to fight the pandemic for the benefit of all. Conservatives are often sceptic to science and rather die in a preventable disease than try a new medicine. Conservatives believe in bronze age myths without any evidence but are sceptic against evolution even when the theory can be demonstrated in front of them. It is typical for the brain to accept everything you are told at young age by authorities like your parents regardless how stupid and illogical. As people with a conservative mindset grow up they retain childhood superstition while progressives grow wiser.

That is maybe how it is supposed to be, sadly in western europe, the one that call themselves "progressive" are the most close minded people.
Their only mantra : it is the fault of the racist cisgender white man. There was that "progressist" woman of arabic background that said on [spam] "we should gas all white people". (she made several tweets with same kind of content. I would say racist, but we all know racism against white does not exists...)
She is "progressist", so she was thank for her word of brotherhood and peace by becoming a leader of a student union.

So when I hear the word "progressist", I remove the safety of my Browning.

[Pineapples Studio]

Good to know it works the same way in Europe as it does here.

[netzerkaiser]

The list of liberal causes is so narrow though... Palestine, racism from whites against blacks, LGBT stuff, reproductive rights... there are so many real injustices that ignored, from ill-treatment of Christians in middle east, to child labour in the far east, the list is endless. Thats why I think imagination is lacking (I should have used the word imagination instead of intelligence) in many liberals & progressives.

[Pineapples Studio]

It’s all about identity politics and your arbitrary group’s level of oppression relative to other groups. That’s what governs which causes are deemed “worthy”.

[YumYum74]

You know what is fucking annoying? The generalization (by both sides). I see it here as well.

I am a progressive, hell in the US I’d probably be classified as a socialist (I’m not). But just because I am progressive, doesn’t mean I lack intelligence, imagination or whatever. It would help if people just discussed how their stance is on specific subjects, instead of just throwing out talking points they’ve heard. And before I get attacked, I mean that it goes both ways. Both sides do this, and it’s exhausting.

Jesus Christ…

[netzerkaiser]

It’s all about identity politics and your arbitrary group’s level of oppression relative to other groups. That’s what governs which causes are deemed “worthy”.

Cheers. Some excellent comments here, including from those who disagree with me. We can all learn from one another once the mind isn't closed to different views.

[netzerkaiser]

Just as hopefully from me a last point is, this stuff is being pushed day & night not only in media etc, which you can ignore, but also in the world of work. Some people very close to me who work in particular for global corporations have shown me emails recently that show what we may call progressive values now dictate company culture, which is very difficult to ignore / avoid.

[Pineapples Studio]

Of course it is. The driver of progressivism is dogma, and dogma must be dictated to the unwashed masses. There is no room for discussion. The name of the game is, “You will do as we say or we will destroy you.”

[brian6902]

I'm far-left. Broadly speaking, I'm a socialist, but acknowledge there are a lot of bad socialist ideologies. Specifically, I want to expand democracy (despite how most people associate socialism with authoritarianism). We did a good job moving away from a system of having kings/lords making decrees that the peasants had no choice but to follow, to a system where we elect people to advocate for our interests. However, we just shifted that old system to the workplace, where there are CEOs that make directives that all the low-level employees must follow or get fired. Workers should be able to vote on who their bosses are, and bosses should manage their workers with the understanding that they may be voted out if they're a terrible boss. I don't think things like a planned central economy are a good idea, but people seem to think that that's the only option when somebody says "socialism".

Now, with that all out of the way, I fucking hate most liberals. A lot of them seem to have "woke themselves to sleep", as I like to put it. I've seen white liberals create "black only" spaces in the name of giving them a safe space, not realizing that they looped all the way back around and are doing segregation again. It's all about identity politics and virtue signaling, and most of them don't seem to care about actually making any progress, which is ironic given that they have the "progressive" label.

That being said, at least their reasoning for getting there originates from a good place of just letting people be people. Conservatives, on the other hand, seem to mostly be motivated from a place of hate. They get offended by things that don't affect them at all (such as the mere existence of trans people), and try to go out of their way to make sure the people they inexplicably hate either don't exist, or exist in misery.

[netzerkaiser]

I'm far-left. Broadly speaking, I'm a socialist, but acknowledge there are a lot of bad socialist ideologies. Specifically, I want to expand democracy (despite how most people associate socialism with authoritarianism). We did a good job moving away from a system of having kings/lords making decrees that the peasants had no choice but to follow, to a system where we elect people to advocate for our interests. However, we just shifted that old system to the workplace, where there are CEOs that make directives that all the low-level employees must follow or get fired. Workers should be able to vote on who their bosses are, and bosses should manage their workers with the understanding that they may be voted out if they're a terrible boss. I don't think things like a planned central economy are a good idea, but people seem to think that that's the only option when somebody says "socialism".

Now, with that all out of the way, I fucking hate most liberals. A lot of them seem to have "woke themselves to sleep", as I like to put it. I've seen white liberals create "black only" spaces in the name of giving them a safe space, not realizing that they looped all the way back around and are doing segregation again. It's all about identity politics and virtue signaling, and most of them don't seem to care about actually making any progress, which is ironic given that they have the "progressive" label.

That being said, at least their reasoning for getting there originates from a good place of just letting people be people. Conservatives, on the other hand, seem to mostly be motivated from a place of hate. They get offended by things that don't affect them at all (such as the mere existence of trans people), and try to go out of their way to make sure the people they inexplicably hate either don't exist, or exist in misery.

I have to come in here. You're confirming something I've always suspected... that many conservatives find liberals to be foolish in not treasuring or valuing much of the values they grew up with, & that many liberals think conservatives are just plain bad, which I think is worse.

I guess I'm just a guy who hates change. I live in countryside & I just love the old ways, even if I'm looking through rose-tinted glasses. I guess I'm a sentimental old fool, bu I hope nothing worse.

[ryukenmaster666]

Of course it is. The driver of progressivism is dogma, and dogma must be dictated to the unwashed masses. There is no room for discussion. The name of the game is, “You will do as we say or we will destroy you.”

That is something very interresting, how some things totally flipped in a couple of decades.
Before, it was the conservatives who wanted to forbid things. They didn't like much other points of view. Progressives were against dogma, they love unpolitically correct. They liked to shock and make fun of everything.

Now, it is progressive who wants to forbid (or 'cancel', which is more modern) everything that is not their point of view. If you're not progressive, you're a facist. And not allowed to speak. There is no alternative in their eyes. Now it is conservative that use unpoliticaly correctness. They are the one who like to make fun of everything and shock.

Exampple, if the progressive in western europe had their way, they would re-introduce blasphemy laws (at least for some religions. They still encourage to mock christianity, for instance)

[Pineapples Studio]

We just shifted that old system to the workplace, where there are CEOs that make directives that all the low-level employees must follow or get fired. Workers should be able to vote on who their bosses are, and bosses should manage their workers with the understanding that they may be voted out if they're a terrible boss. I don't think things like a planned central economy are a good idea, but people seem to think that that's the only option when somebody says "socialism".

How would you implement that in practice, though? Power isn’t simply designated; it has to actually come from somewhere, and it must be held and wielded actively or else it is lost. How would workers exercise any sort of power over their bosses unless they are given that power by a central government, which by definition would make that government the true wielder of the power?

Conservatives, on the other hand, seem to mostly be motivated from a place of hate. They get offended by things that don't affect them at all (such as the mere existence of trans people), and try to go out of their way to make sure the people they inexplicably hate either don't exist, or exist in misery.

This is where things get murky because the word “conservative” can mean many things to many different people. I gather you are using it in the modern sense of the “FOX News / Tea Party” redneck who spends his days praying the gay away, and I agree that those people are closed-minded and incompatible with modern society. They will inevitably die off, although it may take a while. However, there are other ways that word can be interpreted. (More distressingly, it can be used as a method of silencing opposition. e.g. “He said something I disagree with, so he’s just a conservative idiot and I can ignore or discredit everything he says from this point forward.”)

I don’t consider myself conservative, but I have been lumped into that category on many occasions for some of my opinions, including (and especially) my take on what we are discussing in this very thread. But you wouldn’t ever find me campaigning against abortion rights or burning the LGBT flag or anything like that. It can be very difficult to stand out as a voice with a developed political ideology when you are constantly grouped into categories that you don’t feel represent you accurately. YumYum touched upon that earlier. That’s why I prefer not to label myself at all and simply focus on the issues.

[Pineapples Studio]

Of course it is. The driver of progressivism is dogma, and dogma must be dictated to the unwashed masses. There is no room for discussion. The name of the game is, “You will do as we say or we will destroy you.”

That is something very interresting, how some things totally flipped in a couple of decades.
Before, it was the conservatives who wanted to forbid things. They didn't like much other points of view. Progressives were against dogma, they love unpolitically correct. They liked to shock and make fun of everything.

Now, it is progressive who wants to forbid (or 'cancel', which is more modern) everything that is not their point of view. If you're not progressive, you're a facist. And not allowed to speak. There is no alternative in their eyes. Now it is conservative that use unpoliticaly correctness. They are the one who like to make fun of everything and shock.

Exampple, if the progressive in western europe had their way, they would re-introduce blasphemy laws (at least for some religions. They still encourage to mock christianity, for instance)

Comedians talk about this a lot nowadays. There are many famous comics who refuse to do shows at universities at all, even though the audience is exactly the right age and demographic for what they do and they could probably make a lot of money, because the kids today are just too sensitive and might be offended by the jokes. It must feel like doing a show for a geriatric home.

[netzerkaiser]

Of course it is. The driver of progressivism is dogma, and dogma must be dictated to the unwashed masses. There is no room for discussion. The name of the game is, “You will do as we say or we will destroy you.”

That is something very interresting, how some things totally flipped in a couple of decades.
Before, it was the conservatives who wanted to forbid things. They didn't like much other points of view. Progressives were against dogma, they love unpolitically correct. They liked to shock and make fun of everything.

Now, it is progressive who wants to forbid (or 'cancel', which is more modern) everything that is not their point of view. If you're not progressive, you're a facist. And not allowed to speak. There is no alternative in their eyes. Now it is conservative that use unpoliticaly correctness. They are the one who like to make fun of everything and shock.

Exampple, if the progressive in western europe had their way, they would re-introduce blasphemy laws (at least for some religions. They still encourage to mock christianity, for instance)

Comedians talk about this a lot nowadays. There are many famous comics who refuse to do shows at universities at all, even though the audience is exactly the right age and demographic for what they do and they could probably make a lot of money, because the kids today are just too sensitive and might be offended by the jokes. It must feel like doing a show for a geriatric home.

You're right. I know of one famous english comic who won't tackle anything that might offend ethnic minorities (not that I think he should) but who relentlessly mocks the disabled. Classy guy.

[Pineapples Studio]

Nothing should be off-limits in comedy. It’s all about context. You can say horrible things that are clearly not meant to be taken at face value & all comedians do this to some degree. I mean, seriously… they’re JOKES.

[netzerkaiser]

Of course it is. The driver of progressivism is dogma, and dogma must be dictated to the unwashed masses. There is no room for discussion. The name of the game is, “You will do as we say or we will destroy you.”

That is something very interresting, how some things totally flipped in a couple of decades.
Before, it was the conservatives who wanted to forbid things. They didn't like much other points of view. Progressives were against dogma, they love unpolitically correct. They liked to shock and make fun of everything.

Now, it is progressive who wants to forbid (or 'cancel', which is more modern) everything that is not their point of view. If you're not progressive, you're a facist. And not allowed to speak. There is no alternative in their eyes. Now it is conservative that use unpoliticaly correctness. They are the one who like to make fun of everything and shock.

Exampple, if the progressive in western europe had their way, they would re-introduce blasphemy laws (at least for some religions. They still encourage to mock christianity, for instance)

You're so right. I guess many of us conservatives would have been liberals way back. Some of us are just born to run from being told what to do & how to think.

[netzerkaiser]

Nothing should be off-limits in comedy. It’s all about context. You can say horrible things that are clearly not meant to be taken at face value & all comedians do this to some degree. I mean, seriously… they’re JOKES.

I get what you say, its just I can't imagine, for example how tough enough a cross to be handed would be, being say a dwarf, & having horrible jokes made about your situation by someone who's never felt that anguish of otherness. Just my view.

[Pineapples Studio]

It’s all about context. Are the jokes mean-spirited? Are they being used to make a larger point? And also, are the dwarves in question able to step outside of themselves and see the humor in a joke even if they are the target of it? See: “Life’s Too Short”, an entire television series about dwarf humor starring actual dwarf actor Warwick Davis.

(Is it still “dwarves”? Is that one of the things we’re not supposed to say anymore? I think it might be “little people” now. Don’t get me started on terminology… I grew up being told that it was offensive to use the term “black people” and that I should always say “African-American”, even though that term assumes two things that aren’t necessarily true, but now you can’t say “African-American” and you’re supposed to say “Black people”, with a capital B - but no capital for whitey, because fuck you - and you can also say “people of color”, which is remarkably similar to “colored people”, but that one’s highly offensive, you can’t say that one.)

[netzerkaiser]

It’s all about context. Are the jokes mean-spirited? Are they being used to make a larger point? And also, are the dwarves in question able to step outside of themselves and see the humor in a joke even if they are the target of it? See: “Life’s Too Short”, an entire television series about dwarf humor starring actual dwarf actor Warwick Davis.

(Is it still “dwarves”? Is that one of the things we’re not supposed to say anymore? I think it might be “little people” now. Don’t get me started on terminology… I grew up being told that it was offensive to use the term “black people” and that I should always say “African-American”, even though that term assumes two things that aren’t necessarily true, but now you can’t say “African-American” and you’re supposed to say “Black people”, with a capital B - but no capital for whitey, because fuck you - and you can also say “people of color”, which is remarkably similar to “colored people”, but that one’s highly offensive, you can’t say that one.)

Yeah, I'm glad you distinguished. These were pretty low I felt, but maybe I was wrong. I wasn't listening, just in room with TV on, guy called Jimmy Carr, he's big in UK.

[Pineapples Studio]

Yeah, I know of him. He’s got the weirdest laugh in human history.

My point isn’t to excuse anybody or to argue that all humor is funny and people just need to lighten up. Nothing like that… My point is simply that people have the right to express themselves. I don’t have to agree with what anybody says. I can find them offensive all day long. But at the end of the day, a democratic society requires that they be allowed to speak. Otherwise, it is no longer a democratic society.

[Iddaoeeok]

Yeah, I'm glad you distinguished. These were pretty low I felt, but maybe I was wrong. I wasn't listening, just in room with TV on, guy called Jimmy Carr, he's big in UK.

He's also a tax-dodging Tory. A fine example of a conservative.

[netzerkaiser]

Yeah, I'm glad you distinguished. These were pretty low I felt, but maybe I was wrong. I wasn't listening, just in room with TV on, guy called Jimmy Carr, he's big in UK.

He's also a tax-dodging Tory. A fine example of a conservative.

I shouldn't have brought him up since I know jack-shit about him. I'm more Tommy Cooper myself TBH.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn4kH9c0JdA

[Pineapples Studio]

Louis C.K. is the king of comedy and a prime example of someone who got nailed by cancel culture essentially for having a weird fetish. My understanding is that he always asked for permission before jerking off in front of people, so what’s the problem? I’ve heard the old line that they felt like they couldn’t say no to him because of his position. First of all, that’s bullshit. You can always say no. Vulnerability to peer pressure is a personal weakness to be overcome, which is probably politically incorrect to say in and of itself, but guess what? Nobody will teach it to you. The world is full of people who want shit from you and most of them will exert pressure to get it. It’s your responsibility to watch your ass out there. Second of all, Louis C.K. wasn’t even famous for most of his career and didn’t exactly wield a lot of power.

[netzerkaiser]

Louis C.K. is the king of comedy and a prime example of someone who got nailed by cancel culture essentially for having a weird fetish. My understanding is that he always asked for permission before jerking off in front of people, so what’s the problem? I’ve heard the old line that they felt like they couldn’t say no to him because of his position. First of all, that’s bullshit. You can always say no. Vulnerability to peer pressure is a personal weakness to be overcome, which is probably politically incorrect to say in and of itself, but guess what? Nobody will teach it to you. The world is full of people who want shit from you and most of them will exert pressure to get it. It’s your responsibility to watch your ass out there. Second of all, Louis C.K. wasn’t even famous for most of his career and didn’t exactly wield a lot of power.

Wow. Anyhow, I've been stripping wallpaper with steam all afternoon to prepare for plasterer. I appreciated the conversation, it made time go by quicker doing awful messy job. Cheers.

[Pineapples Studio]

Ha, is that a good wow?

[brian6902]

We just shifted that old system to the workplace, where there are CEOs that make directives that all the low-level employees must follow or get fired. Workers should be able to vote on who their bosses are, and bosses should manage their workers with the understanding that they may be voted out if they're a terrible boss. I don't think things like a planned central economy are a good idea, but people seem to think that that's the only option when somebody says "socialism".

How would you implement that in practice, though? Power isn’t simply designated; it has to actually come from somewhere, and it must be held and wielded actively or else it is lost. How would workers exercise any sort of power over their bosses unless they are given that power by a central government, which by definition would make that government the true wielder of the power?

Government stepping in to force that kind of policy would be a terrible idea. At most, there could be tax incentives for companies with that kind of structure. I'm basically advocating for more worker cooperatives. It's totally possible in today's economy; the Mondragon corporation of Spain is the 7th largest corporation in Spain and is organized in such a way. Moving to that kind of system on a broader (national) scale is certainly a challenge. I don't think it could really happen in a place like America/Europe overnight. It would have to organically gain enough momentum until the point where the classical capitalist block of corporations have no choice but to bend to the larger movement (again, NO intervention from the government for this though, or else you'll fall into authoritarian regimes).

And good point, I did overgeneralize the qualities of conservatives, and from the specific lens of American conservatives. I know of quite a few people from the UK who are considered conservative (in the UK), and hold much more reasonable positions that I can at least respect even if I don't agree. But my experience with American conservatives has not been the same. Granted, I have family from the deep south, so perhaps my views are a bit skewed.

[netzerkaiser]

Ha, is that a good wow?

A good wow. I checked him on wiki.

[Pineapples Studio]

Yeah, he’s a kinky freak, but if you listen to his comedy, it’s really not all that surprising. Again, my understanding is that he always asked first. If that’s not the case and he was coercing people to watch him, then that’s different. Consent is key.

[netzerkaiser]

Politics don’t exist just for the hell of it. They exist because they provide the most effective means of motivating people to maintain their own societies. You cannot dismiss the fundamental challenges that human nature presents here, which often render any dreams of altruistic cooperation impossible. Altruism may work at the level of a family or a clan, but it doesn’t scale. Altruism cannot drive complex societies because men are greedy. They want to be rewarded personally for their individual achievements. The successful realization of a shared collectivist goal is simply not enough; talented people want their own piece of the pie and their own “special” stake in its success. They want rewards in proportion to the amount of effort they put into something, and they don’t want people who did not match their output to receive the rewards that they do.

I had to re-read this to understand it. Its so wise. Thank you.

[Iddaoeeok]

Yeah, he’s a kinky freak, but if you listen to his comedy, it’s really not all that surprising. Again, my understanding is that he always asked first. If that’s not the case and he was coercing people to watch him, then that’s different. Consent is key.

What, we're supposed to care about some creep - because that's what he is - of a celebrity losing some of his enormous income for a little while? Is the guy starving? Is he living on the streets? Is he dead? Why should anyone give a flying fuck about Louis CK when there's so many genuine tragedies and disasters and injustices going on right now all over the world? Because he's funny? Bit of perspective folks, please. This is the thing that gets me most about all this anti-PC/anti-woke garbage, how about some using some of your indignation where it's actually needed, instead of this piddling nonsense?

[netzerkaiser]

Yeah, he’s a kinky freak, but if you listen to his comedy, it’s really not all that surprising. Again, my understanding is that he always asked first. If that’s not the case and he was coercing people to watch him, then that’s different. Consent is key.

What, we're supposed to care about some creep - because that's what he is - of a celebrity losing some of his enormous income for a little while? Is the guy starving? Is he living on the streets? Is he dead? Why should anyone give a flying fuck about Louis CK when there's so many genuine tragedies and disasters and injustices going on right now all over the world? Because he's funny? Bit of perspective folks, please. This is the thing that gets me most about all this anti-PC/anti-woke garbage, how about some using some of your indignation where it's actually needed, instead of this piddling nonsense?

That was my fault for going off track, I don't think any cause celebre was being made, certainly nothing to start argument about. Hey, by the way, good to see you back.