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Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 11:30 am

by mattivax

Holidays are passing and I would like to spend this time productive. Not only on being there and watching porn, ya all know what I'm saying?

I wonder about learning a second language and thinking which one it should be. So far I can't decide between German and Spanish. I am thinking about it mainly for professional develomplent and new job opportinities.

The strong economy (Germany, Austria, Switzerland) speaks in favor of German, it is our main trading partner (I'm from Czech Republic), many companies invest in here and I often had questions about German during recruitment. On the other hand, they all speak English well. I have never had a problem in Germany switching to English. The disadvantage is that, globally, German does not seem to be popular.

Which made me thinking about Spanish. The advantage of Spanish is that it is the second most commonly used language in the world after Mandarin. Unfortunately, in Europe it is only Spain, so it will not be very useful here I guess. Unfortunately, from an economic perspective, both Spain and Latin American countries look weak. In general, there are not many job offers in this language. Certainly very useful for tourism purposes and it's global language.

What can you advise me?

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:05 pm

by dangerousFart

mattivax wrote:I wonder about learning a second language and thinking which one it should be.

Learn Ukrainian.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:19 pm

by Anselm_Weinberg

I know German and I tend to agree it's really quite useless on an international level. I am currently learning Spanish myself and can wholeheartedly recommend these resources.

Books
Complete Spanish Step-by-Step by Barbara Bregstein

501 Spanish Verbs: Fully Conjugated in All the Tenses in a New Easy-To-Learn Format Alphabetically Arranged by Christopher Kendris

A Frequency Dictionary of Spanish: Core Vocabulary for Learners by Mark Davies

Easy Spanish for input and listening practice https://www.youtube.com/@EasySpanish

Dreaming Spanish, theoretically, one could learn Spanish using exclusively this method (comprehensible input) personally I prefer to study grammar and use this as a supplement. https://www.youtube.com/@DreamingSpanish

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:42 pm

by mattivax

dangerousFart wrote:
mattivax wrote:I wonder about learning a second language and thinking which one it should be.

Learn Ukrainian.

why? even though most of Ukrainians speaks Russian. That''s the fact.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:42 pm

by netzerkaiser

mattivax wrote:
dangerousFart wrote:
mattivax wrote:I wonder about learning a second language and thinking which one it should be.

Learn Ukrainian.

why? even though most of Ukrainians speaks Russian. That''s the fact.

They are similar & mutually intelligible. By far the greater resources are in Russian. So from a completely apolitical stance, it makes infinitely more sense to learn Russian, & then approach Ukrainian.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:50 pm

by Anselm_Weinberg

Mutually intelligible is pushing it I think, unless we're talking about Surzhyk. But if you already know Polish (which based on anofther post, OP does) and learn Russian, understanding Ukrainian is child's play. There are lots of Ukrainian refugees where I live and whether one agrees with the mixing of politics and language or not, more and more (even native speakers of Russian) are taking Ukrainian amongst themselves and dropping Russian.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 5:12 pm

by mattivax

I got your point that lots of Ukrainain people are in EU now but I think considering career opportunities Russian or Ukrainian won't be really usefull.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:06 pm

by netzerkaiser

mattivax wrote:I got your point that lots of Ukrainain people are in EU now but I think considering career opportunities Russian or Ukrainian won't be really usefull.

You're already bi-lingual. You are Czech & you can deal in English perfectly. So well done.

German is a great language. A beautiful language that has unfairly been stigmatised for various reasons, mostly militaristic. But its a beautiful language. It has a greatly rich history in literature etc. As you probably know, more Czech's have it as a second language than most, due to economic proximity. The challenge of German comes with all the tenses & using the correct ones.

You seem to want a new language for pragmatic purposes. This is important because for me the key driver would be aesthetics.

Regarding aesthetics, most would go towards the Latin languages. For me, Spanish never really got me, but that is changing as I listen to the great folk music, that has a unique flavour, probably due to the Moorish influence. French is utterly beautiful, but as a Briton, I find the accent exceptionally difficult. Italian though, is a joy. It's relatively simple, & utterly beautiful.

If I were to go pragmatic, I would choose between Chinese & Russian, maybe even Arabic. I know nothing of the Arabic or Chinese, but Russian, beyond being pragmatic, is also incredibly beautiful. With all three you have the advantage of starting afresh with a new alphabet that will mean you won't pick up bad habits that you would using a language that uses the Latin alphabet.

Ultimately, you have the 3 key drivers in learning a language.

Firstly, how much time do you have to invest in the pursuit? This will mean at the end of your study, spending time in that country.

Secondly, how good, available & of sufficient variety are the resources to learn, all the way through?

Thirdly, & related to the first point, to spend time in that country & indeed on resources, you will need money. That is the last step following the first & second issues.

Those are the 3 drivers, as far as I can see, with the second being the most important by far.

Good luck.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:12 pm

by netzerkaiser

Anselm_Weinberg wrote:Mutually intelligible is pushing it I think, unless we're talking about Surzhyk. But if you already know Polish (which based on anofther post, OP does) and learn Russian, understanding Ukrainian is child's play. There are lots of Ukrainian refugees where I live and whether one agrees with the mixing of politics and language or not, more and more (even native speakers of Russian) are taking Ukrainian amongst themselves and dropping Russian.

Probably you are correct Anselm. But you are coming from a native Slavic language group, which means you can see the subtleties much better than I. All I know is that having learned reasonable Russian, I went through Ukrainian & Bulgarian courses that just seemed to me to be so easy, mind you this was 15 years ago, & yes, I had some Polish, so I maybe took for granted the Polish-Ukrainian vocabulary "rosumium" for example, & just lumped it in with the Russian knowledge. Also I was at a far lower level, I'd imagine than you, but just to be able to make sense in the widest way, was really satisfying. Like a Norwegian set I picked up, & an Icelandic one, just having a good basis in Swedish meant I could 'read the room' in an infinitely superior way than someone who know zilch.

You get me?

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:32 pm

by Anselm_Weinberg

On a purely pragmatic level, aside from German, either French or Spanish would make the most sense since both France and Spain are economically some of the greater powers within the EU with relatively low non-native English speaking populations. But I figure most people in business nowadays can't get around picking up some English regardless of where they're from.

So as netzerkaiser has pointed out, perhaps aesthetics or personal preference should play a more deciding role. Also, fortunately, nowadays one need not visit the country of their target language before mastering it since there's a plethora of means available to communicate with native speakers over the Internet to keep your language knowledge afresh and not lose too much of it for lack of speaking regularly.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:39 pm

by Anselm_Weinberg

netzerkaiser wrote:Probably you are correct Anselm. But you are coming from a native Slavic language group, which means you can see the subtleties much better than I. All I know is that having learned reasonable Russian, I went through Ukrainian & Bulgarian courses that just seemed to me to be so easy, mind you this was 15 years ago, & yes, I had some Polish, so I maybe took for granted the Polish-Ukrainian vocabulary "rosumium" for example, & just lumped it in with the Russian knowledge. Also I was at a far lower level, I'd imagine than you, but just to be able to make sense in the widest way, was really satisfying. Like a Norwegian set I picked up, & an Icelandic one, just having a good basis in Swedish meant I could 'read the room' in an infinitely superior way than someone who know zilch.

You get me?

I am not a native speaker of a Slavonic tongue but extremely invested in them and it's funny once I got used to the heavily inflected nature of most of them I found Bulgarian and Macedonian much tougher to get a hang of and never really managed to get into them. I prefer having my cases

Also interesting you mention Icelandic, it and Faroese are beautiful and tough languages and as stated above I really like the fact that they retain a "real" case system with full noun and adjective declensions, as opposed to other Scandinavian languages.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:56 pm

by netzerkaiser

Anselm_Weinberg wrote:
netzerkaiser wrote:Probably you are correct Anselm. But you are coming from a native Slavic language group, which means you can see the subtleties much better than I. All I know is that having learned reasonable Russian, I went through Ukrainian & Bulgarian courses that just seemed to me to be so easy, mind you this was 15 years ago, & yes, I had some Polish, so I maybe took for granted the Polish-Ukrainian vocabulary "rosumium" for example, & just lumped it in with the Russian knowledge. Also I was at a far lower level, I'd imagine than you, but just to be able to make sense in the widest way, was really satisfying. Like a Norwegian set I picked up, & an Icelandic one, just having a good basis in Swedish meant I could 'read the room' in an infinitely superior way than someone who know zilch.

You get me?

I am not a native speaker of a Slavonic tongue but extremely invested in them and it's funny once I got used to the heavily inflected nature of most of them I found Bulgarian and Macedonian much tougher to get a hang of and never really managed to get into them. I prefer having my cases

Also interesting you mention Icelandic, it and Faroese are beautiful and tough languages and as stated above I really like the fact that they retain a "real" case system with full noun and adjective declensions, as opposed to other Scandinavian languages.

wow! sorry for misjudging!

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:13 am

by dangerousFart

netzerkaiser wrote:Russian, beyond being pragmatic, is also incredibly beautiful.

Sorry, what is your native language? I think you may be a little biased here.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 10:20 am

by netzerkaiser

dangerousFart wrote:
netzerkaiser wrote:Russian, beyond being pragmatic, is also incredibly beautiful.

Sorry, what is your native language? I think you may be a little biased here.

English. What is biased about finding a language beautiful?! You can only go by experience!

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:16 pm

by mattivax

netzerkaiser wrote:
mattivax wrote:If I were to go pragmatic, I would choose between Chinese & Russian, maybe even Arabic.

Chinese and Arabic I agree but they must be exteremely difficult comparing to any other European language. Taking Chinese, with that time I would probably learn two other Europan languages.
About Russian I'm not so sure about it's pragmatizm. In different political situation probably yes, but now and in close future I don't think so. Russia is marginalized now, no one wants to do business with them, companies are closing it's branches in Russia so for career opportunities I doubt it will be usefull.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:24 pm

by Anselm_Weinberg

netzerkaiser wrote:
dangerousFart wrote:
netzerkaiser wrote:Russian, beyond being pragmatic, is also incredibly beautiful.

Sorry, what is your native language? I think you may be a little biased here.

English. What is biased about finding a language beautiful?! You can only go by experience!

That guy is just a a Russophobic troll trying to get a raise out of people. If you were to judge a language by the actions a state or government is committing you would have to stop speaking any language. Even if we're limiting things to recent times, the US has an impeccable track record when it comes to engaging in imperialist wars, from Serbia to Iraq to Afghanistan. But equating ordinary Americans or the English language with their government is rightly frowned upon and that even with the US being a liberal democracy.

But for some reason the same standards do not apply to ordinary Russians or the Russian language with its rich literary tradition that goes back centuries before Putin ever saw the light of day. I guess it's still a little known fact that Ukrainian troops were in Iraq in a "peace-keeping" capacity - as much a sham as the Russian "denazification" and "special military operation" but according to the same logic I guess this is also the responsibility of ordinary Ukrainians and we should consequently shun the Ukrainian language? Be consistent and apply the same standards across the board lest you want to look like a hypocrite.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:32 pm

by netzerkaiser

But for some reason the same standards do not apply to ordinary Russians or the Russian language with its rich literary tradition that goes back centuries before Putin ever saw the light of day. I guess it's still a little known fact that Ukrainian troops were in Iraq in a "peace-keeping" capacity - as much a sham as the Russian "denazification" and "special military operation" but according to the same logic I guess this is also the responsibility of ordinary Ukrainians and we should consequently shun the Ukrainian language? Be consistent and apply the same standards across the board lest you want to look like a hypocrite.[/quote]

You know, I am often amazed at the utter beauty of what is known as native American names, like Missisippi, Missouri, so many. I see that same beauty in so much of the Russian language. I wonder if there is some kind of link there going back to antiquity. Of course we'll never know, but we do know that the Native Americans crossed over from Alaska.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:34 pm

by netzerkaiser

netzerkaiser wrote:But for some reason the same standards do not apply to ordinary Russians or the Russian language with its rich literary tradition that goes back centuries before Putin ever saw the light of day. I guess it's still a little known fact that Ukrainian troops were in Iraq in a "peace-keeping" capacity - as much a sham as the Russian "denazification" and "special military operation" but according to the same logic I guess this is also the responsibility of ordinary Ukrainians and we should consequently shun the Ukrainian language? Be consistent and apply the same standards across the board lest you want to look like a hypocrite.

You know, I am often amazed at the utter beauty of what is known as native American names, like Missisippi, Missouri, so many. I see that same beauty in so much of the Russian language. I wonder if there is some kind of link there going back to antiquity. Of course we'll never know, but we do know that the Native Americans crossed over from Alaska.[/quote]

hmm, interesting:

https://www.science.org/content/article ... ears%20ago.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 6:27 pm

by dangerousFart

netzerkaiser wrote:English. What is biased about finding a language beautiful?! You can only go by experience!

That's probably because when you think "Russian" you imagine hot porn chicks. But that works for any language. You can imagine the ugliest language in existence and it'll sound good when being spoken by a young woman. There's nothing inherently beautiful about Russian. Too many consonant clusters, a retarded vomiting intonation (likely because it has so many reduced vowels), a weird Greek-like alphabet... Just listen to men speak Russian, so that no sexual attraction disturbs your perception of the language. It's ear-bleeding! Slavic languages in general are pretty ugly, Ukrainian included.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:35 pm

by netzerkaiser

dangerousFart wrote:
netzerkaiser wrote:English. What is biased about finding a language beautiful?! You can only go by experience!

That's probably because when you think "Russian" you imagine hot porn chicks. But that works for any language. You can imagine the ugliest language in existence and it'll sound good when being spoken by a young woman. There's nothing inherently beautiful about Russian. Too many consonant clusters, a retarded vomiting intonation (likely because it has so many reduced vowels), a weird Greek-like alphabet... Just listen to men speak Russian, so that no sexual attraction disturbs your perception of the language. It's ear-bleeding! Slavic languages in general are pretty ugly, Ukrainian included.

Sorry, but I find it beautiful. Please try to see where I'm coming from here. You're talking about a new alphabet for me, which brings clarity because one is starting from base 1.

I'm sure I'd find Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese just as beautiful. The joy, half of it is realising what you thought was impossible... suddenly you're like "I can actually bloody do this".

Why did I learn Russian? I was with a Belarussian girl, exactly 20 years ago, & the largely Baltic circle that she moved in, spoke Russian, & had a kind of contempt for us here in the UK, because they were to a degree educated, & doing crappy jobs with the dumbest of our populace, so they had a kind of reverse contempt for us. And she was particularly vulnerable as she lived on an annually approved visa, not like these Baltic sorts who had EU approval. The Moldovans had the same insecurity & disadvantage. They were considered 'lesser people', particularly amonst their EU sanctioned Baltic peers.

So I needed to speak the language because otherwise you were being sneered at by a load of "Mr Anderson's". And I was like, fuck off, have a bit of respect. The only way I could garner that respect was by hitting them with their own lingo-speak. Hey you, don't ever say "davai davai" to my girlfriend who I love & respect. Don't ever say that. And it worked though the love was doomed.

You get me? You have to fight. If she was Chinese & being bullied by a load of Triad sorts, I'd have had to do the same thing.

You have to fight.

For love, & respect, sometimes you have to fight.

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:04 pm

by isis666xxx

english should be the primary language everywhere

fuck second languages

everywhere speak english as a primary language

china = english
japan= english
brazil = english
entire europe= english
etc

as a secondary languague for fun they could speak other languages

that way everyone would speak english perfectly, it would be much more powerfull, practical, higher etc

humanity having a primary language

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:07 pm

by Anselm_Weinberg

isis666xxx wrote:english should be the primary language everywhere

fuck second languages

everywhere speak english as a primary language

china = english
japan= english
brazil = english
entire europe= english
etc

as a secondary languague for fun they could speak other languages

that way everyone would speak english perfectly, it would be much more powerfull, practical, higher etc

humanity having a primary language

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vW7YlZZ1HXU

Re: Second language in Europe

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2024 10:38 pm

by netzerkaiser

Anselm_Weinberg wrote:
isis666xxx wrote:english should be the primary language everywhere

fuck second languages

everywhere speak english as a primary language

china = english
japan= english
brazil = english
entire europe= english
etc

as a secondary languague for fun they could speak other languages

that way everyone would speak english perfectly, it would be much more powerfull, practical, higher etc

humanity having a primary language

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vW7YlZZ1HXU

So true Anselm.

So we decide that all this beauty is discarded for an x generation of people, I don't want to use bad language. But an x generation of people that assume that all of the 'too much to comprehend' history that went before, should be laid at the alter of this x generation.

All we should be doing is upholding & maintaining the survival of all that has gone before. Not wishing to create a common lowest denominator.

Sorry, I am too disappointed in this ideology of let's have the lowest common denominator to go further.

Too disappointed to continue argument; The beauty of for example Hungarian, sacrificed so an x generation can play about with their iphones.

It's very sad its come to this.